Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 35 of A Dance With Dragons, in which we cover Chapter 59 (“The Discarded Knight”) and Chapter 60 (“The Spurned Suitor”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Once again, Scheduling Note: I will be on vacation for the week surrounding surrounding Labor Day weekend, and thus there will be no ROIAF post next Thursday, September 3rd. Blogination should resume the following Thursday, September 10th.
Got it? Good. Onward!
Chapter 59: The Discarded Knight
What Happens
Hizdahr is holding audience, having replaced Dany’s bench with two ornate golden thrones, one left empty. Barristan is not impressed with the people Hizdahr has selected to replace Dany’s trusted entourage, and wonders if the Shavepate is in the room, hiding behind a mask of the Brazen Beasts. The assembled petitioners immediately clamor about their injuries and wrongs as a result of the incident at the pits, or alternately with demands to know whether the queen is dead, and Reznak is hard-pressed to calm them.
Barristan notes that the Dorne prince and his companions are in the hall, and thinks that Martell does not realize the extent of his danger with Daenerys no longer there to protect him. He is not surprised that Dany was not interested in the prince; he thinks that Dany “wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud.” He notes that the king has seen Martell and frowned about it. He is struck by the thought that the court of Dorne is rife with plots and poisons, and wonders if perhaps the honeyed locusts were aimed at Hizdahr rather than Dany.
Three Yunkish Great Masters come in with the mercenary Bloodbeard, who flings a severed head at the feet of the king. Barristan sees it is Admiral Groleo, to his grief. Hizdahr freezes in shock at the display and stutters something, and one of the Yunkish slavers informs him that Groleo’s execution was in redress for the death of their commander Yurkhaz at the pit. Barristan points out that Yurkhaz’s death was an accident, trampled by his own people in the panic, but is ignored. As a show of “good faith,” the Yunkish return three of their other six hostages, but only the ones who are Hizdahr’s relatives. They announce that the other three will remain in Yunkish custody until the dragons are all destroyed.
Reznak protests that only Daenerys can order the dragons killed, and Bloodbeard sneers that she is dead, which engenders a roar of protests and cheers alike from the onlookers. Barristan thinks that Bloodbeard wants to start something regardless of the cause. Hizdahr declares he must consult with his advisors and ends the audience hastily. Barristan considers what Daenerys would want, and goes after Quentyn Martell to advise him to leave for Dorne immediately, without packing.
Gerris Drinkwater, however, is not impressed by Barristan’s news that the king took note of them today, and Quentyn brings up the marriage pact. Barristan counters that the pact has no force, and also that Dany clearly preferred both her former paramour and current husband to Quentyn. He tells them about the poisoned locusts, and concludes from Quentyn’s reactions that he was most likely not behind it, but warns him that anyone looking for a scapegoat for the assassination attempt will choose Quentyn as the most obvious target. Quentyn observes that Barristan’s moniker is “The Bold,” and asks him what he thinks will be his own epithet if he flees Meereen without the queen.
“Quentyn the Cautious? Quentyn the Craven? Quentyn the Quail?”
The Prince Who Came Too Late, the old knight thought… but if a knight of the Kingsguard learns nothing else, he learns to guard his tongue. “Quentyn the Wise,” he suggested. And hoped that it was true.
Commentary
Well, this situation bodes well for everybody! Nothing could possibly go wrong!
Jeez.
Selmy’s thought that the poisoned locusts were intended for Hizdahr instead of Dany—or even for both of them—is an interesting one, though I don’t know if I really buy it. I would have argued against it on the grounds that a lot more people in Meereen want Dany dead than Hizdahr, but all things considered that might not actually be true. Even aside from the Shavepate, there seem to be a lot of people who are pretty pissed about Dany’s disappearance and ready to blame Hizdahr for it. But even so, Occam’s Razor still suggests to me that Hizdahr is to blame. Possibly because I just really want it to be Hizdahr so Selmy can kill him, but that’s neither here nor there!
But that Barristan is batting around alternate theories on the poison at all is a little puzzling. Did he not ever get around to talking to the confectioner that Skahaz claimed has proof Hizdahr set it up? Was that disproved? And if so, why doesn’t Barristan mention it in his thoughts? It feels like that entire thing from Selmy’s last POV was just dropped, which is kind of weird.
In a few more days, if the gods smiled on them, Hizdahr zo Loraq would no longer rule Meereen … but no good would be served by having Prince Quentyn caught up in the bloodbath that was coming.
…Or maybe not, but still.
So this is going to get hairy, I see. Color me completely shocked. Well, at least I probably don’t have to worry that Hizdahr is going to fold like the cheap suit he is and kill the dragons, because it looks very much like he won’t get the chance. I’m okay with that, even as I remain convinced the whole thing is going to go horrifically pear-shaped almost immediately. Because, c’mon. It totally is.
I wonder if Quentyn is going to take Barristan’s advice or not. Past experience with ASOIAF suggests assuming the shittiest possible outcome for everyone involved, so the smart money is on Quentyn refusing to go anywhere, and getting caught right up in whatever crazy coup idea Skahaz and Barristan have cooked up between them. So, uh, good luck on that, kid. I won’t hold my breath, let’s just say.
You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time.
Right, because teenage boys never make idiotic decisions, Selmy, only girls do. Uh-huh.
But, kneejerk sexism aside, he certainly seems to have hit the nail on the head as concerns Dany’s romantic issues specifically. Cf. Exhibit A: Naharis, Daaaaaario. Ugh.
Of course, Quentyn Martell may be boring mud, but as Selmy himself thinks, he’s certainly not related to all-mud, fire-free folks. I’m really fairly certain it’s not actually possible to live a 100% mud life in ASOIAF even if you’re just random gal or guy, and it’s definitely impossible once you get up to royalty levels. And Dany is blood of the dragon, after all. Perhaps it is a bit overly optimistic to hope that any Targaryen would pick mud over fire.
(See, Selmy, you could have just said that and not made it about Dany being a stupid girl, sheesh.)
Chapter 60: The Spurned Suitor
What Happens
Gerris returns to report to Quentyn that the meeting with the Tattered Prince is set up, but opines that they should take Ser Barristan’s advice and get out of Meereen. Quentyn thinks of the disappointment and mockery that awaits him if he returns to Dorne empty-handed, and tells Gerris and Ser Archibald that they are welcome to leave, but he is not. They tell him they are staying too, then, but argue with him the whole way to the meeting over the wisdom of attempting to treat with the Tattered Prince after they had so blatantly betrayed him. Archibald offers to kill Hizdahr for him, but Quentyn thinks that Daenerys is only the path to the prize, not the prize itself.
They meet with the mercenary captain in a seedy basement, and Quentyn is angered that he brought one extra guard than was agreed on, but apologizes for his deception. The Tattered Prince is unimpressed at his excuses, and mocks him for his lack of dragon queen to show for it. Quentyn argues that the man who originally hired him (Yurkhaz) is dead, and says he wants to hire the Windblown instead. The Tattered Prince points out that Quentyn violated their last contract, and Quentyn says he will pay double what the Yunkish are paying him. The mercenary wants to know what he wants to hire them for, and Quentyn tells him he wants him to help Quentyn steal a dragon.
“Double does not pay for dragons, princeling. Even a frog should know that much. Dragons come dear. And men who pay in promises should have at least the sense to promise more.”
“If you want me to triple—”
“What I want,” said the Tattered Prince, “is Pentos.”
Commentary
Well, that’s a different tack.
I am so bemused right now. What on earth does Quentyn think he’s going to do with a dragon even if he can get one? Yes, he apparently has some Targaryen ancestry, so yay that and all, but even Dany, a full-blooded Targaryen scion, has trouble controlling these dragons, so what makes Quentyn think he’ll do any better? Plus I don’t recall that Quentyn acquitted himself all that well when Dany took him to see them in person, so really, what.
But okay, sure. Assuming he can tame or at least subdue a dragon—which is a VERY big assumption in my opinion—that would certainly be a coup for him. Very probably, a large enough one to counteract his failure to bring home Daenerys herself. So I see the reasoning there, sort of.
Also, assuming she ever gets her shit together and comes back from wherever she and Drogon have fucked off to—which is a slightly smaller “if,” I hope—having one of her other dragons held captive in Dorne would admittedly provide a pretty strong incentive for Dany to finally abandon the steaming pile of dysentery that is Slaver’s Bay and come back to Westeros finally. Maybe. Or, you know, he can just go and ravage Westeros without her, whatevs.
So I see the plan, probably. I am just extremely skeptical of Quentyn’s ability to execute it.
…Oh, okay, on rereading for the summary I see where he got the idea:
The road leads through her, not to her. Daenerys is the means to the prize, not the prize itself. “ ‘The dragon has three heads,’ she said to me. ‘My marriage need not be the end of all your hopes,’ she said. ‘I know why you are here. For fire and blood.’”
Ahhh, so he thinks she meant that he could possibly ride one of the dragons with her? Huh. I guess that’s… possible? Is that what she meant? I dunno, it seems awfully optimistic of her.
But then again, it’s not like there are a ton of even marginally trustworthy people with Targaryen ancestry floating around in Meereen, so maybe Dany was working with what she had.
Hmm. Veddy interestink.
“Do you trust this peace, Quent? I don’t. Half the city is calling the dragonslayer a hero, and the other half spits blood at the mention of his name.”
“Harzoo,” the big man said.
Quentyn frowned. “His name was Harghaz.”
“Hizdahr, Humzum, Hagnag, what does it matter? I call them all Harzoo. He was no dragonslayer. All he did was get his arse roasted black and crispy.”
*frown* Who are they talking about? Is this something I need to understand? I hope not.
“Meris is no man. Meris, sweet, undo your shirt, show him.”
“That will not be necessary,” said Quentyn. If the talk he had heard was true, beneath that shirt Pretty Meris had only the scars left by the men who’d cut her breasts off.
Lovely.
Also, I really don’t know what the Tattered Prince’s obsession with Pentos is, or why he thinks Quentyn’s just going to be able to hand it to him on a platter.
…Of course, having a dragon would probably be actually pretty helpful with that, so, um. Sure.
Well, one thing’s for sure: it would appear that Quentyn Martell is, possibly, not nearly as mud-full and fire-free as Ser Barristan—or I—assumed him to be.
Yay? Maybe yay? It’s definitely a thing that is happening. I am intrigued, anyway.
And so in general, the plot, she do continue to thicken! But she will have to simmer for a while until I get back. So Happy Labor Day to those of you who care, and I’ll see y’all in two weeks! Cheers!
Oh, things are heating up, I will have a lot more to say when you get to where you are heading with this storyline.
Leigh, I think you’re being a little unfair to accuse Ser Barristan of sexism. When he thinks of “young girls” preferring fire to mud, he is obviously thinking specifically about Dany, who happens to be a girl.
And the “dragonslayer” they were talking about, “Harzoo”, was the man in the pits who jumped on Drogon and drove a spear in his neck. That’s what Frog et al were talking about, Leigh.
This chapter plain shocked me. Quentyn, for most of this book, had seemed like a miniature version of Prince Doran. Now he appears to be abandoning all caution and trusting the freaking Tattered Prince (?!?) to help him- wait for it- STEAL a dragon !!!!!!!!!!!!WTF????????
I love the Harzoo quote. It summarizes so well what everyone thinks of Meereen.
The so-called dragonslayer is the idiot that speared Drogon in the back.
I’m pretty sure that it was previously established that Pentos has the custom of elevating princes to be the ceremonial monarch of the city until something goes wrong and said prince is decapitated. And I’m also pretty sure that it was said that the Tattered Prince was elevated to princedom (the day after the previous prince was killed, no less), said “so long, suckers” and fled the city to become a sellsword.
Apparently he still wants vengeance on Pentos.
Poor deluded Quentyn. He absolutely believes he is the hero of this story. He goes on a quest and fails the quest so he automatically assumes that his failure is only a stepping stone to his true destiny, riding a dragon. The neat thing is the narrative structure of the book backs him up. If you read his chapters in isolation and ignore all other viewpoints it’s pretty easy to see him as a classic fantasy hero.
Quentyn’s delusions are also pretty funny when juxtaposed with Ser Barristan’s insight. He believes Dany is behaving typical of a young girl by going after a bad boy, which is actually true to life. Dany is acting like the 15 year old girl she is, rebelliously chasing after the older jerkoff in a fast car that her Dad (Ser Barristan) strongly disapproves of. What Ser Barristan doesn’t point out is that Quentyn is acting a lot like a typical teenaged boy, desperately trying to prove himself a big burly badass in an attempt to woo the 15 year old away from his rival suitor.
I do believe Sir Barristan covered for us guys when he used the word “fools”.
@3 Is it that he wants vengeance on Pentos or is it that he wants to rule it, but on his terms and not as a ruler-by-proxy who will get butchered the instant things go wrong? When I read things, I thought the latter, but with the general mindset/morality of the average person in this part of the world, I guess the concept of him utterly sacking the city because of a long-standing grudge makes a lot of sense.
I’m sorry, but I seriously had to laugh at how you got so mad at Barristan’s fairly inoffensive comment, but the fact that one of the Tattered Prince’s mercenaries was getting raped and presumably killed for trying to escape that situation got no mention. Good times.
It is a little interesting that Barristan seems to automatically see Doran’s characteristics in Quentyn right away. He seems to assume that the son is like the father and lets that perception color his idea of the character. Yet Quentyn gave us a reason to doubt that view in Barristan’s chapter when he points out that he was raised as the Yronwoods as their ward, and even made a point to accept his knighthood from their lord.
More to the point, who here wants to bet that if he goes home empty handed he feels that he would be letting down not only his own father, but also Lord Yronwood. Remember that Quentyn’s retinue was larger at the beginning of the journey, and one of those retainers was the son of Lord Yronwood and the best friend of “Prince Frog”.
I also want to echo my anticipation of you seeing where this storyline ultimately goes :)
As to what the Tattered Prince wanted with Pentos after reading him say that he wanted it, I was definitely of the opinion that he wanted to be installed as king-in-fact instead of some figurehead waiting to be a human sacrifice if a grain crop failed. He used to be a noble there and he wants to come home as the Big Man
Minstral, I think very large part of Quentyn’s motivations now is not wanting his friends to have died in vain. But I also think he really is very similar personality Doran has.
Daenerys probbaly was testing subtly (but Quentyn noticed in a way) if Quentyn could be dragon riding material. However he did not show promise but flinched when he saw the dragons. Many people seem to think that Dany made a mistake not marrying him. I feel that it was not only her duty to what is best for the city and honor her word she gave to Hizdahr and she might have been able to have Quentyn as second husband later anyway (I think Hizdahr would have been fine with it if that meant he was left alone to rule Meereen) or just have his alliance if he could have become a loyal dragon rider.
A recent comment linked to the Meereenese Blot essays, which – thanks – kept me up all night!
I think the writer of those essays put it very succinctly: “Barristan isn’t a bold game-player, he’s a dupe who’s in way over his head.”
@11: I’m not saying that Quentyn isn’t like his father in caution, just saying that his relation to the Yronwoods carries its own weight and that he would throw caution to the wind for their sake.
Gah! This chapter makes me think it wasn’t Hizdahr behind the locusts, but maybe the Shavepate? He’s so sneaky, with his secret police and masks and shit. Its got to be one of those two. Is whoever it was also the Harpy?
@12 – The Meereenese Blot reminds me of an exercise where you have to give a vigorous defense of a weak argument. It’s well-done sophistry, but still a no-sale over here.
@14 – Neither of your guys is my top suspect for the Harpy.
So if Selmy is now “discarded”, does that mean he was previously carded? And if so, who carded him, and what kind of club was he trying to get into?
You don’t see these kinds of questions being asked on reddit.
@16 – Not surprising he was carded, given how spry he is at his age. I heard he actually likes when they card him.
I’ll say I got no clue what the hell is going on here
@1……ISWYDT HA!
The Harzoo bit reminds me of a bad storyteller having a character jokingly criticize the plot. This doesn’t make the story any better.
GRRM knows he created a place with a bunch of forgettable personalities and interchangeable names, but the fact that it was on purpose doesn’t make the Meereen scenes any easier to read.
And yes, I’ve heard theories about the reason why he did it. To put us in Dany’s shoes, as the stranger in a strange land, to make Meereeneese culture so alien as to validate mild racism against them (is everyone in Meereen evil? Who cares, their names are funny).
It’s just kinda cheap. If Dany had this attitude towards a culture which showed some positive traits, it would mean more. The conflict would generate better stories.
Don’t hurt Pentos, dude. Illyrio Mopatis lives there.
The Tattered Prince is a jerkass (@7: agreed), but I enjoyed his dialogue here. I don’t think he could out-snark Tyrion, but it would be fun to watch him try.
Quentyn is 18 or 19 at this point, according to Wiki of Ice and Fire calculations. So yeah…one brash teenager pursuing another.
I don’t have much to say about these chapters. Not my favorites but, yes, I’m interested to see whether Hizdahr really is the one behind the poisoned locusts or whether it is one of the other two leading candidates; it is far from clear to me that Barristan is making the right calls here; and…Quentyn, Quentyn, Quentyn….
Re Barristan, my thought is sometimes he likes to play discard, sometimes datcard….
I found Selmy’s professional assessment of Hizdahr’s cowardly reaction to the Yunkish act of war most interesting. Robert would have called for his warhammer and settled matters on the spot. Aerys Targaryen would have burned them alive. Dany probably would have blown a gasket and had the Yunkish fed to the dragons.
Either they already knew that Hizdar was a wimp or it was a test – either way, he is clearly the wrong guy to lead a city under siege.
Leigh,
“You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time.”
In this quote, Selmy clearly says fools and children – indicating both sexes – then young girls, specifically indicating Dany, who is a young girl at the time. Sometimes when reading this series I feel like you get annoyed far too easily at anything you perceive as sexism, without thinking through what it is you’ve read.
@12 I don’t know that I look at Barristan as either a bold game-player or a dupe, since neither really seem particularly accurate. He seems to be, simply, a brave knight who has undying loyalty to whomever he is serving and his character is more an indictment of the reality of holding such a mindset. He’s served unworthy kings, his great acts of loyalty wound up serving to do more harm than good (ie: singlehandedly saving Mad King Aerys) and now he’s stuck in a position where he’s finally questioning his loyalty and realizing his actions, in hind-sight, weren’t necessarily for the best — but he’s still essentially acting the same way.
I mean, if you summed up Barristan throughout this book in one sentence, it could easily read: “Although Dany ignores any advice he gives that isn’t aligned with her immediate emotional reaction and although he privately questions her thought processes and actions, he WILL NOT TOLERATE anyone else criticizing her and bases his life’s worth on her success.”
He’s gotten to the point where he questions the results of his “just followin’ orders” Kingsguard mindset, but hasn’t shown an actual willingness to actually stand up to the person giving orders. He just does what Dany says (or what other supposedly loyal followers tell him are in her best interests) and mopes about the bad stuff that’s going to happen as a result.
@24, He singles out “young girls” as SEPARATE from “children”. So no, he’s doing exactly what Leigh’s pointing out here. Yes, Dany is a young girl. She is not ALL young girls though. Arya too is a young girl. Do we believe she’d act the same way as Dany? Sansa too?
I think sometimes people are more annoyed that Leigh forces them to examine their unexamined sexism, without considering that Leigh has a point.
Leigh, nice catch about the confectioner that Skahaz promised to show Barristan. Indeed this key piece of evidence implicating Hizdahr is presented to Barristan offscreen. Which means Martin is clearly up to something.
But I believe Barristan is wrong in his thoughts anout Quentyn. Of course Dany is obviously not attracted to Quentyn, but ultimately that is not the reason she rejected him. She wasn’t attracted to Hizdahr either, yet she agreed to marry him – because she believed that is where her duty lies, to sign peace and protect the people of Meereen. Dany rejects Quentyn not because she if a “foolish young girl”, but because of her concern over the lifes of her people (who would die or get enslaved if she sales away to Dorne). Dany is a very unique character in the ASOIAF universe, most others, even the “good guys” don’t care about smallfolk all that much, but Dany does. And Barristan simply cannot understand her true motivation, and thus comes up with the “foolish crush” interpretation, which is very superficial and disrespectfull.
@20 The Harzoo bit is obviously a meta commentary, but what did Martin truly want to say with it? Maybe it is a joke directed at readers who don’t like to dig too deep. :-)
Right!!! because Barristan would mention about everyone in the world who do idiotic things even though he is specifically thinking about Dany.
@28, It makes just as much sense to say “young people” as it does “young girls”. If he wasn’t (incorrectly as NickH points out)seeing in Dany qualities he assigns to femininity in general, he would have said something else.
@29 He did think about all children.I think it’s unfair to call him a sexist over only one wrongly chosen word in his mind.He would have thought about “young boys” if it was a prince instead of Dany.
@26 Aeryl
She is not ALL young girls though. Arya too is a young girl. Do we believe she’d act the same way as Dany?
Uh, lack of sexual escapades aside, if anyone has a history of choosing fire every. single. time. it’s Arya Stark. Girl’s a walking conflagration.
Not commenting on your general point, just on this particular example.
@26 I actually love that Leigh forces me to examine sexism. Sometimes I read her reviews and go ‘Wow, I never would’ve caught that’ and I think I’ve become better at recognizing sexism because of her. I appreciate that she gives me a different view and I think I’ve become a better man person because of it.
That being said, she does tend to only talk about the women in the story struggling and avoid the men in the story struggling. If feminism is about true equality, I think she should talk about both or none.
A few chapters ago, a small, weak, bookish maester was gang raped by Iron Men and she didn’t even mention it, whereas if that was a woman, she would’ve been outraged. In this chapter, a man (who is obviously a weaker man because he was targeted) was forced to suck cocks by the other men, but instead she chooses to mention an off-hand remark about ‘young girls’.
If we’re talking equality, let’s talk equality.
@21: On the other hand, Illyrio is still the guy who saw no problems with handing a thirteen year old girl over to be married to a grown man (rot13’d) naq znl be znl abg or gelvat gb chg n snxr Gnetnelra urve ba gur guebar, so I’m not all that sympathetic.
@33 SlackerSpice
But she grew to Stockholm Syndrome love the guy so everything is a-okay… Go Team Illyrio!
@32 If feminism is about true equality
It is. Which is why we talk about the experiences of women more. Because men have already had the last 3000 years of conversations focused on them TYVM.
@31 He would have thought about “young boys”
Assuming facts not in evidence. As a matter of fact, IIRC, this is contradicting facts not in evidence.(Flag if I get spoilery guys, I can’t remember if we covered this). But contrast this with how he thinks about Rhaegar, all his mistakes he ascribes to Rhaegar being Rhaegar, not to Rhaegar just being some “young boy” who if given the chance would of course choose to plunge the realm into war over an affair.
Rhaegar was 9 years older than Dany when the major events leading to his death took place. Still young, but an adult by any standard.
I have 2 teenagers. Good kids but any system that would install him or her as an absolute ruler is insane. My boy would be more likely to do dumb things, my daughter more likely to do crazy things. Both will be fine adults after much more experience and education.
@36, Yet Rhaegar was close to Dany’s age when he decided/learned that he was the “chosen” one who would bring about the resurgence of a strong Targaryen dynasty, and all his major adult decisions sprang from that realization, something that any rational adult would/should have overcome as an adult.
And even in your comment, you aren’t generalizing your statements about your children to ALL children. YOUR son is dumb, not all boys are dumb. YOUR daughter is crazy, not all girls are crazy.
Well… most teenagers are fairly dumb and/or crazy. We don’t make them Presidents, Generals or CEO’s because that would be crazy. But the ancient world did just like Martin’s fantasy world.
I always thought that GRRM really was trying to make a statement about the idiocy of inherited monarchy – as a historical fact and fantasy trope – by putting teenagers in charge and having them fail in spectacular ways.
Joffery, Rob, Daenerys, Quentyn Martell, Viserys… All inherited jobs they were unready and / or unsuited for simply because of their family names.
@38, And if Barristan had just said “young people” instead of “young girls” we wouldn’t be having this conversation. But yet, we know Barristan has viewed the foolish actions of another Targaryen youngster through a different lens.
@39:
Aeryl, are you arguing that
A) The majority of young girls (especially if they grow up together in the same society, with peer-pressure acting upon them to conform to societal norms) don’t have a foible or two that are common amongst them, like making stupid decisions regarding boys,
or
B) that whether such a thing is true or not, a person should never make such observations in their own private thoughts regarding someone else whom they know well,
or
C) Something I haven’t written here.
I’m arguing that to single out “young girls” as being exceptionally foolish in regards to decisions about the sex they are attracted to is sexist, as Leigh points out.
Or as Leigh said herself
Right, because teenage boys never make idiotic decisions, Selmy, only girls do.
I’m pointing out that Barristan’s thoughts here are doubly sexist, when you consider how he views Rhaegar, who’s bad decisions outweigh Dany’s by a fuckton.
a person should never make such observations in their own private thoughts regarding someone else whom they know well,
But Barristan didn’t make an observation about a person he knows well. He made an observation about all “young girls”.
Begin quote
Leigh,
“You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time.”
In this quote, Selmy clearly says fools and children – indicating both sexes – then young girls, specifically indicating Dany, who is a young girl at the time. Sometimes when reading this series I feel like you get annoyed far too easily at anything you perceive as sexism, without thinking through what it is you’ve read.
End quote
[Comment edited by moderator.]
@42, If he didn’t want to include all “young girls” in his observation he wouldn’t have. He did, and words have meaning. If he wanted his thoughts to be fair and equitable, he would have stopped at “fools and children”.
Again, the sexism of Barristan is undeniable when you compare how he regards Rhaegar, a grown ass man living his life in service to a childish delusion, and how he regards Dany, a childish girl living her life in service to a mature dedication of justice and peace.
Aeryl @43:
Not sure how your view of Rhaegar as “a grown ass man living his life in service to a childish delusion” squares up with the setting where magic and prophecies are real. Where, in fact, Targaryens survived the Doom because they were the only dragonlords to pay heed to a vision and act accordingly, whereas their peers only laughed at them.
Re: Barristan, yea, he is sexist, but what would you expect? At least, he respects Dany as his ruler regardless and doesn’t automatically doubt all her decisions because of her gender, like many characters in the book and alas, many readers do where female leads are concerned. . Also, doesn’t he somewhat bitterly reminesce about his own past experiences and unrequited feelings in this chapter? They surely color his perceptions as well.
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@41:
Barristan used a generalization for how young girls are perceived within his context (Westerosi nobility and their servants) to make an observation about Dany. He wasn’t making an observation about young girls. It sounded like he was using a platitude (It is known) to reinforce his previous observation regarding her behavior. I’m not arguing for or against this, just clarifying. So I’ll repeat my question another way:
Is it the platitude itself you are objecting to (that most, as in more than half, of young girls within his context seem to be attracted to dangerous young men i.e, fire) or that he had the thought in the first place? Or both?
@45 squares up with the setting where magic and prophecies are real.
Except, prior to the birth of Dany’s dragons there hadn’t been effective “magic and prophecies” for centuries.
Re: Barristan, yea, he is sexist, but what would you expect?
I don’t expect anything different, which is why I’m boggled by the endless defenses that Barristan wasn’t sexist. Leigh pointed out something that’s emblematic of a common mindset within these books, but apparently Barristan isn’t allowed to be flawed? IDK.
@47 Barristan used a sexist generalization for how young girls are perceived within his context (Westerosi nobility and their servants) to make an observation about Dany.
FTFY
I don’t deny that Barristan’s thoughts were generalizations. I don’t get why everyone is so keen to deny that it’s STILL a sexist generalization.
I’m not “objecting to” anything, except people who think Leigh is off the mark is pointing out that this was sexist of Barristan.
@48:
Ok. What do you mean by sexist when you use it in that sentence? Is there a connotation that he has done something wrong by having the thought? Or is it being used as a judgement-free descriptor, as in “Barristan used a generalization that involved someone’s gender as the demographic”?
Is there a connotation that he has done something wrong by having the thought?Of course it’s WRONG to think that young girls and ONLY young girls are more susceptible to bad choices in the realm of romance. It’s the ignorant “good girls only like bad boys” bullshit that has fostered an entire movement of anti-feminism, the Men’s Right/Pick Up Artists movements.
Or is it being used as a judgement-free descriptor,
It’s not “judgement free” in regards to gender. If it were “judgement free” in regards to gender, the other two genderless descriptors “Children and fools”(both of which Dany is a part) would have sufficed. But he didn’t let it stand there. Martin wanted to the audience to understand that Barristan thinks young girls were more prone than young boys to bad decision making, especially in regards to romance.
Again, you keep trying to make this conversation about something I’m not talking about. That Barristan is sexist here is apparent, you’ve even acknowledged that his attitude is totally in line with mainstream Westerosi thought. I’m arguing against the people who think it isn’t apparent. If you don’t disagree with that, what do you want from me?
Regarding Selmy’s opinion about ‘young girls’ always choosing fire… While, obviously, he is pointedly thinking about Dany here, there may be more to it. I know by this point in the book he hasn’t talked about it, but he may also be thinking back to some other young girls he had known, and the choices they made…
I agree completely. If we’re gonna discuss equality, we’re gonna definitely be discussing women more often than men. That’s fine. But that doesn’t mean the conversation is going to be exclusive to women. You can’t make a big deal about a woman getting raped, then 20 or 30 chapters later ignore a man getting raped. That’s not equality. That’s sexism. If the situation had been reversed and it was a man writing about a male character getting raped then he ignores when it’s the other way around you’d get upset and complain and I would completely agree with you.
Like I said, if we’re talking equality let’s talk equality. But if you’re only interested in talking about one gender’s rights, then I’m sorry but the conversation is gonna end here.
ignore a man getting raped.
Maester Kerwin, a captive from the Stepstones who Victarion disdains as weak and girlish and who has been gangraped by the crew,
So Leigh didn’t ignore it. Did she examine it in depth? No, because there is nothing new to say. Blame Martin for overdoing it with the sexual violence. Leigh has discussed in depth the disparity between how often women are raped in this story, and men, and why. ONE instance of male rape doesn’t really address this disparity.
Aye, she didn’t ignore it. She mentioned it offhand. But if that had been a gang-rape of a female character would it have been as nonchalant as it was? I think we both know the answer to that.
I know most of the sexism-advocates here will never change their minds ever, but I’ll weigh in.
Barristan’s quote is not inherently sexist, it’s simply the vagaries of English and rhetoric. He’s using the power of three here to make his statement seem more poetic, “fools and children, and young girls” — 3 things. Speaking in this structure is more pleasing and poetic. On top of that, he is thinking of a specific young girl, but we cannot switch from plural (“fools and children”) to a single (“and Dany”) without the English sounding weird at best.
As for thinking his “young girls” comment immediately equals sexism, that’s simply your own prejudices making inferences that aren’t in evidence. “Young girls” does not automatically mean ALL young girls. It simply means “more than one”. Perhaps Barristan has known several young women who have fallen for “fire”. We don’t know, because it’s not in the book. So to assume that Barristan’s comment is immediately sexist because he makes a statement that isn’t incredibly specific is just inserting “evidence” where there is none.
@32 In all honesty that’s incredibly worrying. Because here we have a simple, innocuous statement getting blown out into ridiculous proportions, simply because some people want to argue sexism where there is little to no evidence of it. To say this comment war is making mountains out of molehills is an understatement. Your energies against sexism would be much better spent on real issues, not some perceived slight in a random throwaway comment (which, btw was in a character’s private thoughts and in no way impacted any other character) in a fictional work.
Hi everyone, moderator here. Let’s get back to discussing the chapter. In the interest of keeping this discussion civil and constructive, please agree to disagree and move on to a different topic.
@58 – A new chapter might help with the changing the topic. Did Leigh get sent to the Silent Sisters?
@59 – Check the Scheduling Note above. If all goes well, there’ll be a new post next Thursday!
I wouldn’t take the Shavepate’s “proof” at face value. Hizdahr’s confectioner probably would offer a damning testimony, but in an earlier chapter, the Shavepate reported “confessions” to Daenerys that were fairly obviously extracted using torture. Using those methods, he could get the confectioner to say whatever he wanted him to say.
As for his motive to lie, his rivalry with the Loraqs and other old noble families, in addition to plain old desire for power (he could probably get Barristan to install him as king in Daenerys’s absence), would certainly suffice.
Frankly I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Shavepate was the poisoner. I have no idea if he’s a sincere convert to the cause of abolition or if he’s just using the new ideology to inprove his own status and get back at the old houses. Functionally it doesn’t matter in either case he had good cause to be angry work Dany for allowing herself to be coopted by the old masters because that’s exactly what she’s done by marrying Hizdahr.
@35 I seem to recall a quote by well respected Civil Right Leader that went “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”